WTFL Wpg. Touch Football League - WTFL

679 Posts

Sorry for the delay, but it's the first time I've done a schedule so some lessons were learned the hard way. The schedule is now live though, so please have a look at it.
Thanks Rebecca for doing a ton of the work with me.

We tried to take in everybody's requests. I think we managed to cover the vast majority of the requests, prioritizing as follows:
1) If you said you couldn't play on a specific day or a specific week, basically if you told me any hard dates, I didn't schedule you. (if I did email me)
2) If you said you didn't want weekends, I didn't schedule you on weekends. You might have 1 game or so, because you might have others in your division who want weekends. I tried to balance it.
3) If you said a particular day was no good like "Tuesdays", then I didn't schedule you on Tuesdays.
4) If you told me you're from the south side, I tried to book your games on the south, except when you're playing somebody from the north, then I tried to alternate and give you the late time so you could get to the game on time. Vice versa for north end people.
6) I tried to distribute your schedule so that you'd play once a week. For the most part that's probably true, but everybody will play 2 games in 1 week at some point so that we can "catch up" after long weekends, stupid bomber games etc.
7) If you said you didn't like 6pm games, I did my best, but it turns out a lot of people don't like 6pm games. Somebody has to play there!
8) And yes I did start the women's division as late as possible.
9) Other things were factored in with regards to field rotations and reffing etc.

WTFL and UTFL Crossovers
The WTFL is proud to be able to crossover our Elite Division with the UTFL Division 1, to make the schedules for both leagues more interesting. Four crossover games will occur on the last Thursday of every month, two of which the WTFL will host and the other two the UTFL will host.

Everybody's games should add up to 18 for men's and 14 for women. If you see something that looks out of wack, email schedules@wtfl.ca. At this point it is very difficult to move games around so unless something is incorrect, I'm unlikely to move it.

Stadium games:
Right now we don't have enough teams to do our stadium day. I think we have 3. We have 2 options here, either more people signup for a stadium game, or we give the teams who paid for it their money back. I'd rather do the stadium day...your choice.

Unfortunately our best "north field" option is going to be Tec Voc. The north fields we were allocated were not suitable (nobody in the north end makes fields with endzones). Our apologies, but we did spend a few hours driving around the city, looking up google maps with satellite images and calling various community clubs who didn't return any of our calls. If anybody has a contact they can put me in touch with at a location you like, then send them my way. Otherwise Tec Voc for you. Good news is that tec voc is usually a pretty good field.

I'm probably leaving some info out, but for the most part it's pretty simple. Tell your teammates to check the website for the most accurate schedule. It's your responsibility to show up for games.

Good luck to everybody this year, including everybody's favourite team the Saskatchewan Roughriders.

679 Posts

And don't forget to login, click "My schedule" at the top and then you can print your schedule out or export your schedule into a format that hopefully your calendar program can use.

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Hey Marcus, Congratulations. Schedule looks really interesting and fun for the first time in the last few years!

Cross-over games with the U!! Holy crow! Next thing ya know there will be an African-American President. (Hey you guys didn't arrange that did you?)

If this is an indication of what the Dub and this exec has planned, this is really a new era! Congratulations to the Schedulling crew and the exec for giving us an awesome league!

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Way to go guys. Everything looks great, other than the Roughriders comment. Get lost you inbred!

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Boo Riders!
Good job on the schedule though! Props.

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i guess less teams paid off, this is the best schedule we've ever had in 3 years!! thanks Marc. And ill second the BOO RIDERS!!!

Chris

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How are pads working this year? Does home team pick them up? Put them away?

Jason

679 Posts

Guys the riders comments really hurt.

I had to make a couple of small changes with the UTFL crossover games. Nothing serious, I just had to flop a couple of fields around with the UTFL. Everybody still plays on the same night, but elite should double check your schedule now please.

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First team on the schedule picks them up. Last team takes them back. So home team on game 1 picks them up, and away team on the last game takes them back.

To be honest I just realized that I forgot to double check that teams weren't getting screwed on that one. If you go through your list and you think you have too many pads assignments, let me know and I'll clean that up.

Thanks

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Jason, on first glace I think I would say your team seems to have the pads quite a bit. I'll fix that up.

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Ok I fixed up a few teams that had some pads issues. On average I'd say that 1/2 your games or so you'll have to do pads. In the single game nights in late august, everybody does pads.

If you guys want to make it easier and just go pull all the goal posts out of the ground on all the fields, that will make this easier. Or email me if you have over 1/2 your games with pads duty and I'll look into it.

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Marc, please check your email.

Jason

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dont some of the players play both first div U and elite wtfl? isnt that goin against what the league is trying to do? i am not very smart so i need this explained.

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You've got to be kidding me...i just looked at our schedule and after requesting the majority of our games to be wednesday's we have 1 f'ing game all season long on wed...i dont doubt making a schedule is hard but thats ridiculous. Also could someone please awnser polish prince's question, because the way i understand it is that you cant play on multiple teams in the W, but you can crossover to another league all together, only to be playing against alot of the same people...please explain so i dont feel dislexic

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PP, we are crossing over for a total of 4 nights. We can make that work. It's way different than 60 teams playing with multiple players.
Also, during the crossover games, the players that do happen to play on both teams MUST play with their UTFL team. This is done to maintain consistency and is different what we did before.

About your schedule Harlo, this is what your team asked for:
"As many late game Wednesdays as possible.
No Monday games at all (defaults will ensue)
No Sunday games.
If some games have to be played on days other than Wednesdays then we prefer the late weekday timeslots (everyone works stupid schedules)."

You have no Monday games. You have no Sunday games. You have ALL games at 7:45pm (until we can't do those anymore). You play mostly on tuesdays which wasn't a night that was a "bad night". I could give you Wednesday games I guess, but unfortunately your opponents only requests were to not play on Wednesdays. Tuesdays were the common denominator and I'm sure if you asked the rest of the league they would trade with the elite schedule in a heartbeat. Yes I couldn't swing wednesdays for you, but I think I did more than my part to make up for it.

I also emailed Jon last week to warn him with the request to say that Wednesdays will be tough to do because of these reasons.

So now applying some logic here, if teams in your division can't play sundays, mondays, wednesdays and you don't have many friday or saturday time slots (and nobody wants weekends anyway), and the best night that worked for the league crossover was thursday, then guess what? You're going to end up with tuesdays and thursdays.

Sorry you're not happy with the schedule, but I'm more sorry that I couldn't give the rest of the league as sweet a schedule as you got.

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like i said i understand its not easy, but im still upset...also could i possibly get an explanation as to why our quarterback has be suspended indefinately, and not been given a reason??...see you at the AGM, this will be fun.

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I also have some questions and concerns about the crossover games...how can you possibly "force" players to play on their utfl team? The league is running thin on players and has seen alot of teams move to other leagues, and now your forcing them to play for their teams in other leagues?(banging my head against wall)...You said it was done to maintain consistency...what consistency? If WTFL teams shit rock utfl teams, who cares ITS ANOTHER LEAGUE!...If the utfl agreed to play these games as long as this was the condition then say thanks but no thanks, because now your taking people's money for those games and forcing them to play on another team for a different league. Your job as an exec is to put forth the best interst of the players and the league (democracy), but this is starting to seem more like a dictatorship. but thats just my $.02

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The forcing is only done during the 1 game of the 4 when team A plays team B and you have a player that is on both.

So lets take an example:

Say Jeff Kull plays on Assassins and on Untouchables. When Assassins play Untouchables we are suggesting that Kull play on the untouchables for that game. By doing this, the competition is consistent for our elite teams, so in this case the Assassins are playing the same untouchables team as the Avengers would face. The suggestion was also made because I think the general feeling is that the elite teams *should* win most of those games so giving up a player during the 1 game where there is a player on both teams might help even it out a bit and make it more interesting.

Do you play on a UTFL team in div 1? When we went through the list we didn't see there being too many this would affect, but perhaps we overlooked some people. If you want to email the exec a list of guys on you team that would be forced to play on the UTFL team during the head to head maybe we can have another look at this one. I think you're making this out to be something bigger than it really is.

As per the constitution, any team can send ONE non-voting member to any board meeting. I assume you meant "see you at the next board meeting" and not the AGM, which occurs in December. If your team wants to send a member that is in good standing to the meeting you are more than welcome to.

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I think the total number of players we thought that would have conflicting teams in the WTFL/UTFL crossover was 4. If we grossly underestimated this then we're more than happy to try to work something else out.

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You clearly just do not understand this crossover situation. I wont speak for another team but im pretty sure the assassins and the rest of the elite teams are thinking the same as us. If we crossover and some of our guys (it could only be one) is forced to play for his UTFL team, our team is missing a huge part to the team. Our goal for the year is not to have fair competition during crossover games but to go to Ottawa and win a national championship. Forcing us to lose a member of our team for even just one game is just one less opportunity for us to improve as a team. From what i can recall in the past when anyone on an elite team had a crossover game with their Div.1 team they always played for the elite team. There was a reaon for this. All your doing is holding us and the rest of the elite teams back...

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Hey harlo,

You made me laugh when I read your post....and I just had to comment.

I do think I understand the touch situation for "elite" and lower div teams. I am really glad you are concerned about the level of competition among the "elite" teams, because, after 5 years of trying the "multi-multi team teams" teams, in all honesty, the improvement level has ceased. It's over! That ship has sailed.

(and hey by the way), I was in favour of the multi-team team but, it's time as it recently existed, is/was over. (Time to modify the concept)

and Hey....I'd be shocked to think that the Assassins share your opinion, on this, or any other point. For one, maybe start by looking up the definition of the word character, or integrity...Did you really actually post "Our goal for the year is not to have fair competition"....????!!! Glad you guys organized your own league!! Hmmmmm!(Somebody call the Editor.........)

Well, that about says it all!!!....no sorry this is too much fun.....

I have news for you. Playing any lower div teams (no disrepect intended, but that's why they are not in Elite)won't see Elite teams improve. Do you think running up a big score vs. a lower division opponent makes you "national championship" material??? Your team doesn't believe that does it? and really,you'd lose just one guy????lol!

In researching this topic, I learned that one of the reasons there are cross-over games is that it's really to give the Elite some variety. Secondly, also to let the lower div teams realize, that should they play competitively in a couple games against Elite, they could eventually,maybe play full time in that division. The "cross-over" is not intended to "improve" elite teams!!! Geez Louise!

Now, surely, you must know by now, that if you want your team to improve, you'll really have to go to a couple of the June, July or August tournaments in the Trillium tour that Ontario and Quebec hold. You do realize that don't you???

In MB, the WTFL's Elite teams hammer it out against each other as best they can. But, roster wise...if you have just one player who isn't "elite" caliber, ...your team won't, and really can't, get that much better. (Those crafty Elite QB's will find the "pidgeon" on defence, and if it's a receiver....who cares. That one guy even if left open, ain't gonna score 3 TDs in a game and beat anyone.)

Did you know? Those Eastern teams play a "TOC calibre" tournament, at least three times a season, if not more. Therefore, they get almost a "second" season of "higher" caliber games, just from being in the tournaments. If you think beating up on teams of lesser calibre, in the West, with "all your players" is going to make you better?.....then you're ignorantly mistaken. So,.... Wise up!

Actually, it appears you and your "family" have the scenario totally skewed in the opposite way. In Manitoba, what you should ENCOURAGE, is that if in the cross-over game(s) your QB could play against your D,... Wouldn't that benefit both himself (vs. your better D)and also test your own D vs. your "national championship" calibre QB.????

answer -.........YES!

That would certainly test both "he" because now "he" has to make plays with (presumably lesser skilled receivers, and your D would have another game against an (reputed to be)"Elite" caliber QB.?

and as for your team "go to Ottawa and win a national championship." ....it will absolutely never happen this year.....apparently TOC is in Unionville (33 km northeast of downtown Toronto )

Thanks for the chuckle!

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first off thanks for giving your opinion, i completely respect it regardless of whether or not i agree with it. However i also agree with you on a few things. You made the arguement that we are not going to improve by beating up on lower division opponents, and your 100% right. Simply running up a score benefits no one. However (maybe im only speaking for our team here) every time we play a crossover game we look at it as an opportunity to work on new systems. If we are missing just one single guy, that seriously hampers our ability to improve. It may shock some people to know that our team isn't made of all american track stars, so its very difficult to go to ontario and play man-2-man, full time. That being said we have to learn to play zones and play them perfectly. Not just good, perfect. So if every single person on the field is not on the same page it wont be perfect, and as you mentioned "Those crafty Elite QB's will find the "pidgeon" on defence". As for letting our quarterback throw against our "elite" defence, in principal this sounds good but from my experience it just doesnt work. If your a quarterback your a competitor and your gonna want to win, but it sure helps when you can audible because you know every single defensive call and singnal. I also dont feel that having your quarterback throw with receivers whom he's not used to, and whom might not be "elite calibre" benefits him in any way...I see you had fun with my comment of, "Our goal for the year is not to have fair competition", but you must not have read after that because i clearly stated this was only during crossover games. I also have a hard time trying to see everyone's facination in trying to get more elite teams. We have four very high level elite teams in this province, so much so that realistically i just cant see another team being able to compete with them. I think if you looked at the number of elite teams per capita in winnipeg compared to that in ontario and quebec, were doing pretty dam good with 4 quality teams. Just ask Megalo their opinion on that...Finally, i know you may not believe there is the slightest possibility of us winning a national championship, but i have to disagree. Even without competing in the Trillium tour, we managed to knock off the number 1 ranked team in '07, last year the number 1 ranked team beat us on the last play of the game, and we have yet to be blown out.

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Now that's what I call a great rebuttal!

Well said!

However, please note my comment was about this year, and referenced your possibly attending the wrong location(again it was just jumping on the literal part)

And, you have a very good team,.... doin Manitoba proud down East.

Yeah I have no desire to see that many more Elite teams. You are right. The four we got are pretty good. But....

How do we make them better????? not by trouncing B teams. It serves no purpose. Practice your backup in case your # 1 goes down. lord knows playing 7 -8 games in 3 days can lead to a pretty dead arm. Get your backup ready. I hear he actually wants to play QB sometime.

You did knock off the # 1 team two years ago, even as the refs seemed to pile up the calls against you on their last drive. Which you managed to stop on your goal line. That was awesome.

And the Eagles great showing the year previous, allowed your team to be seeded in the division you were in, so they helped.

and of course the Assassins finished second in the Winnipeg TOC a couple years ago, and could have finished first if it wasn't for the mysterious??? suspension of a couple of their players. Hmmm!

I'd like to see our Elite teams get even better. Since we are so close to winning the big enchilata, what's needed to get that done?

I think I know, but...open minds are needed.
What's your ideas?

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ha... even with nice paragraphs i couldnt read all of mazurs comments but at least some of the ones i did read sounded intelligent and i agreed with. such as comments about the ontario leagues tournaments. all i really wanted was the league to admit its backtracking on the multi rule.

harlo made a fantastic point about forcing players to play on a team. i agree if a players pays money to play on a team he has the right to play for that team (unless suspended). when and if i pay john my registration i will pay to play all games. if i decide to miss a game (because i want to play for someone else) its my decision not the leagues (unless suspended).

forcing someone to play for a certain team not only takes away a freedom of choice which that player is paying for but hurts whatever strategy the team wants to approach that game with. i will use mike brownridge as my example because i play with him. mike is the leader of the avengers defense, if he thinks that the defense needs work in certain areas and wants to be in the huddle sorting things out that should be his choice. If he decides to play QB for the other team because he wants to see what an opposing qb sees against his defense thats fine too. however its for the league to make this determination. who cares who wins the game because one thing i have never seen in other leagues is meaningless seasons(all teams do make playoffs dont they?).

oh one thing i did disagree with mazur on is any comparison with manitoba sports to ontario ones. manitoba has one city while ontario has many to draw players from. and when we have leagues that want to waterdown our top teams because they want more teams in the elite division. of course a team from manitoba will never win if the leagues have that attitude. if u want to make the agruement that two of the top teams in manitoba are getting old in the assasins and eagles all i have to say is ARE U KIDDING ME. the most important position on a touch team is qb (aside from pass rusher). the assasins have a great backup in jeff (many years ahead of him) while im sure when his time comes and given the chance jims son will also have a chance to succeed.

just dont waterdown the tops teams by forcing some of their top players to play for not as talented teams.

PS i tried this paragraph thing and not a fan

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We are still talking about 4-5 players across the 8 teams and in the end talking about a SINGLE CROSSOVER GAME right?

Congratulations on finding the "enter" key PP. Maybe you can show Harlo where it is on the keyboard.

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if that 1 crossover game is so meaningless y do we play it? as far as im concerned the whole season is a stretch of practices for playoffs and TFCO (because everyone makes playoffs). harlo dont listen, the "enter" is overrated and a hassle.

PS u suck adam

1155 Posts

Hey those paragraphs are fun, and well done.

I am not sure about your comment about watering down teams/leagues. I didn't say that did I? I actually like the idea (as I said) of bringing guys up. The Avengers rise over the last 5 years has been phenomenal. But in bringing guys up. Having guys go down to a "1st" div team made up of multi team guys didn't quite work out, based on my observations. I remember being pumped to ref a 1st Div game between two Avenger nation teams, and one team had 8 guys and the other 6. It was so disappointing. It was like a bad practice.

Maybe a policy could be that a team has to have a base roster of 10 non moving guys, and the top two divsions could have 3 multi team guys while the divisions below only the "one" to act as the original intention of the policy, as a "coach"

Those were concerns I heard and saw from the last 4 years.

I'd actually like to see a couple of the 2nd tier teams move up. Of course they'd have to get some more Elite guys. But only a couple or two. And of course they'd have to have that desire to do so. Trojans, and the Oak Park Grads (HoJO?) are two teams that looked awesome at times last year.

And also, I would hope the guys who play with buddies on lower teams could still do so, somehow.

What do ya think? (Dam those paragraphs were hoppin! They just give the reader a break from all those great ideas you wrote)

....more, more,more

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Woohoo! now were having some fun! This takes me back to my high school debating days!(NOT!lol)...anyway, some good points have been made. Darrell again your absolutely right, we do have to make the elite teams better. I for one would love to see ANY winnipeg team win TOC. However i just dont think the answer is to make them play crossover games, while at the same time telling them who can play and who can't.

What's this a paragraph!! (polish did i just sell out?)...Personally the only team in winnipeg, i can see moving to elite is the Doggs. Other than that i dont think anyone else has the desire or quite honestly the skill. Both trojans and Hojo already have players playing on elite teams. Thus the multi player rule killed both of these teams. One is playing div.2 and the other is playing div.3 in the PIT. Somehow i find it hard to see those teams moving up or improving if you dont allow the elite players to play there. I know that Boats and Blazers as well as Aztecs have been the "scurge" of the league, because supposedly by having elite players on these teams they didnt give other teams an opportunity to move up....wait...how many elite players did they have? 3!!!....So what your telling me is its unfair for teams to compete against them but go give er shit against a team with 12 elite players?!!...am i missing something?...Every league ive ever played in (excluding touch football) this is how it is. These teams are established and no rule changing is going to improve any other team's chances of being able to compete with them. If there truly is another team out there thats ready for elite, they will rise to the top, and they will be heard. But the league will NOT have any influence on this. It will be those players skill and determination that get them there, not crossover games and mulit-palyer rules.

Another paragraph!...this ones serious...What the league has done to Jon and Scott is an absolute f'ing joke. Aside from Darrell these two have put more time and effort into this league since ive been around, than anyone else. The league made their choice and the multi-player rule knowing full well that teams wouldn't be back (if they didnt then they're retards). Ive heard some people were upset they waited "so long" to inform the league they were staring their own. What the hell does that have to do with anything??!! Who gives two f%$k's! The later they waited the better for the W. You as an exec failed to bring in the teams and pissed around for so long that when another opportunity presented itself for teams they took it...UNDER THEIR OWN FREE WILL...Ive never once seen Jon or Scott drive to someone's house, throw a bag over their head and chuck them in the back of a windowless van, telling them the only way they'd see the light of day was by moving their team to the PIT!...Every single team and every single referee is allowed to make the decision where they want to be. If it's not the W thats there choice. Isn't this a non-profit league anyway?...Swantson if this is just a personal vendetta then take it to the parking lot but don't do it like this. It's classless and ridiculous. If you as an exec. committee don't pull your head's out of you a$$', they your all a bunch of donkey's as far as im concerned...wait can i get suspended for voicing my opinion?

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Yo, Harlo,

You're a paragraph man from the start, so why the comment. You be fly, man! (whatever that means...good though, I think.) Like I said, paragraphs allow us to have some comfort reading what is written. So, these posts not only are informative, they are educatonal!!(OK PP I'll shut up):)

So yeah this "debate" is a great way to come to a common ground. Possibly without extremist views.(I teach H.S,) and this is better!! Props baby! Let's keep discussing solutions! :)

I for one am quite perplexed at how the multi-team rule can be "bettered" and provide Blazers, Aztecs,and or any other Multiteam to play at a top caliber. I alone don't profess to have the solution, but through this kind of dialogue, we could uncover some good stuff. All I know is that you are correct. Multi team guys and cross over games don't match. So something has or had to be done to ...what's the word? make better..REVISE! (that's it)

I actually proposed a modification last year, and both ofthe parties mentioned in your post shot them down. Now look what has happened. So, maybe some modification, (limits of some kind) have to be agreed upon.(for the betterment skill develpment of all)

I also agree with your comments about "moving up" Your points are realistic. I was just looking at the "optimistic" , potential side of who might come up. But you're absolutely right, each and every team has to make their own choice.

Hey so are you saying, cross over games are the problem? Brilliant! I absolutely agree. Elminate them. I don't think they were part of the original plan. More of a solution to adding variety. The Dub took the creative approach, and accepted the UTFL's request to develop this idea.

And quite frankly, I think it is "revolutionary" The possibilities of the inter-league play was long overdo. So Props to the Execs on both leagues. If only five guys are effected,and the other members of both league benefit, like you said. It's a democracy! You're absolutely right. Majority rule.

In the very near future, maybe a Provincial tournament to "member" leagues of a new "Touch Football Manitoba." Of course rebellious leagues couldn't participate, so....again, as you said, "your choice." Yes, then we could have a system of more competitive development. Of course multi-team guys would not bemulti-team guys anymore. You'd have to choose a team at that point to play for and strive for excellence with. Unless someone can provide another solution (c'mon boys suggest some)

Sort of like a marriage I guess. Yuck!

Now, I don't want to make this personal, but..... Those guys you spoke of from the "other" league, last August, didn't have the "courage" or "courtesy" to let me know about their U of M Indoor league. I really can't respect that. I could say a lot more, but, then it becomes personal. (If you want to know more email me, and I 'll provide some details).........So if you're saying "they" were "blindsided" by the Dub, well, I have no sympathy for them. Furthermore, the hypocracy of their other "exec" members is unbelieveable. (Again, I don't want to publicly deface anyone)

As for teams going to choose where to play, Barnum and Bailey,the circus guys, coined a phrase, "there's a sucker born everyminute."

Enough of that though. We all will have our regrets.

Now let's see if some ideas regarding development can be offered, by the membership, and the multi-team, or other. The solution wilbe found in dialogue just like this. Hey and what a wonderful way to start the day(and from last night end it also??)

So, thanks for your response,and keep the ideas flowing.

This is fun!!!

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Harlo,

You make some valid points. Yes, I think the Doggs could definitely compete with the top caliber teams in Winnipeg with or without me. As far as any other teams, you cannot tell me that the Kings (U of M guys) would not be a top caliber team in about 3 or 4 years. What their intent is for outdoor, who knows?

But teams don't just appear in elite division overnight. Your team for instance, Kanny and Jon started a million years ago just like I did. I believe we roughly started competing in elite after playing about nine or ten years in the league (don't quote me on that). Teams need time to learn the game and need a league infrastructure that allows teams to properly move through the ranks and grow better at a pace that that is suitable for their ability. Having restrictions sucks.

I guess we can keep going how it's been. Top 4 teams take all the talent from lower division teams, they stay competitive, bottom teams basically stay the same. I for one though believe that there is more talent in this city than people may want to believe.

Jeff

9 Posts

Ok, I've read the comments and as bank guy will throw in my 2 cents also.

This is a recreational sport, right? No no one is making a career of this or going pro, right? Harlo doesn't seem to be having any fun. Who can help him have some fun? And Harlo, maybe, just maybe, you can actually create a post without using any curse words.

Here is my take - Jon and Scott did this to themselves, the WTFL did nothing to them but provide them a league to play in. Until now some of the exec were trying to turn this league into a dictatorship (Jon and Scott). The only reason they put any effort into this league was to try and make things go their way. If you ask me, and I know you didn't technically ask me but by writing stuff you do, it invites comments - For Jon and Scott to start their own league and then want to play in the another league shoots their credability to smitherines. Also being deceptive in telling some teams that they were trying to lure into their league by telling them some other WTFL teams had agreed to join when they hadn't also shoots their credability down. Look Jon and Scott were upset, picked up their ball and went home. Sure, everyone has a choice so if you don't like your schedule or the decisions of the board then go - leave - why are you whining about it? I will be surprised if a lot of teams that left the WTFL won't be back next year.

Almost forgot my paragraphs!

Before we complain about crossover games, lets see how they work. Then if they are no good we can make improvements next year. Thats what we did with the multi-player rule. By the way no other sport league in the city allows for players to play on muliple teams, do you think there is a reason for that? As for the forcing WTFL players to play on their UTFL team during the cross over games, doesn't it just make sense anyways? By all the posts so far I am assuming that everyone thinks the "elite" wtfl teams are much better than the "1st div" utfl teams. So wouldn't the players that play on both teams want to play on their utfl team anyways? Also it makes for a better rivalry and I think more fun! Again isn't that why we play this game? I don't know about you but if my team wins the WTFL final or out east at TOC I don't get a raise at work or a promtion.

In my opinion the WTFL was much better before the multi-player rule and I'm sure it will thrive on into the future.

Just play and have fun in the best league in manitoba!

Andy

70 Posts

just a few quick points... (using the multi paragraph rule) -

who the hell said the aztecs were the scourge of the league??

aztecs actually have four elite players (i'm sure the smart folks can figure out who the fourth one is).

Darrell, a couple and two are actually the same thing.

but i do like the idea of a core of ten single team players. if it was called something cool, maybe it would attract people instead of repel them. 10-CORE. Men of the Core. 10 Men of the Core.

didn't the assassins get beat in a crossover game a couple of years ago by a div 1 wtfl team?

andy, harlo isn't actually cursing because he does cute things with his keyboard, like use dollar signs in the word ASS. makes me wonder what he sees with his eyes.

the only reason i can make this post is because i gots my iPhone™ with me and i was finally able to get the bag off my head. i'm in a dark room, looks like the back of a van, and have been here for a few days. my GPS app tells me i'm on corydon somewhere. any ideas?

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In addition, there's more to the league than Elite. Many teams are here to play for fun as Torsion posted.

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Nice job Harlo on the paragraphs.

First of all, Jon and Scott aren't the only ones who have done work on the board the last few years. I'm pretty sure there are more than a few people who would take offense to that comment. Did they contribute? Absolutely. Scott's major contribution was field lining (which he was paid to do), Jon's was doing the schedule, which he was paid to do (although after doing it this year, no amount of money makes that job fun). Of course doing the schedule had a perk of making the "perfect" schedule for your teams. Perfect is obviously the only schedule you're happy with, having the "best" schedule in the city isn't good enough.

Some of the issues regarding your comment about "waiting so long", shows that you don't really understand all the issues here. I suppose I could use your language and call you "retard", but I don't think I have to at this point. Your words speak for themselves.

Keep calling the volunteers that spend countless hours trying to provide you with a place to play "classless, ridiculous. donkeys". If you think it's helping the cause here you're surely mistaken.

The WTFL Executive is a volunteer committee the governs your league by using the constitution that you all vote in. I suggest reading Bi-Law 3.5.4.1 which from my understanding was introduced last year to deal with cases, like these, stemming from off the field activities.

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Hi Harlo,

Although I agreed with the board's decision regarding Jon and Scott, as president I did not have a vote. The vote was 4 for, 1 against and 1 abstention.

I guarantee you that there are people on the board and in the league that feel either more or less strongly on this issue than I do. I do not have the influence to make all people feel the same way as the vote's outcome would indicate.

This has nothing to do with a personal vendetta. It has to do with what individuals feel is best for the WTFL.

Jon and Scott are in bad standing with the WTFL which is a current but not necessarily permanent suspension. They are banned for life from the UTFL. You may be directing your emotions at the wrong people.

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Wow!

paragraphs!

Yo Rey, c'mon dude, I just wanted to re-reinterate what I was saying. At least I spell correctly. :)

Aztecs, scrounge? I didn't say it. I like the idea of creating a "super" team to play the elite boys. I hold firm with the position, that playing better competition makes them better.

And Yes the Assassins did get beat by a lower team. Hasn't everyone? And that's kind of a benefit to the interdiv games. Those cats can play. Make it permanent somehow. But not incestuous.

What about a policy that said you can only move "up" to teams? And that that guy could only do that for 3 years. ( The point is there has to be some limit, and some boundary.) I am thinking this would also allow some stability for the lower div team. Plus add the "stability" clause of a 10 man permanent/fixed roster. Would that give the 2nd tier teams a base, as well allow for "some" better players?

Is that a starting place?

Hey being called a classless rediculous donkey is kind of a compliment. "Classless" implies there are no limits, and that you are pioneers. "Rediculous" implies creativity and again way beyond previous known boundaries, and of course "donkey" implies beast of burden, a tireless worker.

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Im voting this as best thread of '09!, bout time there's some emotion around here...

As you can probably tell i feel very strongly about the Jon and Scott issue, because they're obviously both friends of mine, and i know how much playing this game means to them. I feel they're being treated unfairly and im not afraid to voice that. Also the decision to put them "in bad standing" not only hurts them but hurts our entire team. I REALLY want to play against the elite teams this year and now thats been put in jeopardy, so yah im pissed. My "malicious" comments toward some of the exec. were probably uncalled for. I dont feel any different about them but i should have kept those comments for a face to face discussion, rather then posting them publicly. Sorry.

Mr. Kull, firstly i have an immense amount of respect for you sir, and i really admire how your looking for a solution. I agree with you about the Kings but personally i just don't see them wanting to move up to elite. Your also again correct that teams aren't just going to spring up out of nowhere. Some of these teams and players were started LONG before i was even born!lol...sorry old man river(shea) haha...i just feel as though that scrapping multi-team players altogether, is an attempt to find these teams immediately.

Andy, don't worry about me, im having plenty of fun. I just got this ball and cup thing and it's wonderful!!...also maybe i'll be proved wrong but i dont think Jeff, Mike and the other UTFl guys will be playing on those teams during the crossover games.

Rey, sorry for using dollar signs in my curse words. I saw a bunch of kids hanging out at 7-eleven the other day, and they were all swearing and wearing big shiny dollar signs around their necks, and they looked so cool. I figured that if i combined the two id be super cool!..guess not...

Marc, im not even going to bother with you but i will say this. We wern't looking for the perfect schedule but when we asked for wednesday games you gave us 1 all year. But we should probably be thrilled with that? Im sure if you were in our situation you'd feel the same way.

Darrell, good to see you giving your .02$ again. It was quiet around here without you. I think your right in saying that discussion's such as this are positive. Hopefully they'll lead to a fair and suitable solution for all parties, both for and against the multi-team rule. Not sure if this idea has been thrown out but what if you lowered the upper division players to 2, and said you can only go down 1 division from the highest level team you play on? Teams could pick up 2 "higher skilled" players, who potentially understand the game better and could teach it to the rest. From my personal experience, there's is no possible way id be playing elite if it wasn't for those that helped me get there. If i started playing when there was no multi-team players, if find it hard to imagine me being able to pick up the knowledge i received. If the so called "most skilled" and "most knowledgeable" players are in elite why not let them play in a lower division and pass that on. It would only snowball from there. You could argue that once you take the upper division players off said team, they would be unable to advance and move up the ranks, but there's also a very good chance that if the players never got the opportunity to play with the upper division guys the only place they would be going is down. I've seen and heard some of the defensive schemes that lower division teams use, and they probably work in that division, and i think its great there being creative. However most of those schemes are not going to be succesfull in any upper division. They'll get blown out, and as its been said before thats not good for anybody. If your not allowed to play multiple teams i think your completely cutting of the flow of knowledge, and not allowing less skilled players and teams to advance like they could...

That's all from me for now, i have to go poop.

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Just an idea, but how about some of the elite players come down and coach some of the lower division teams. This way no multi-team rule and knowledge is still passed along.

Just my two cents.

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Hey CC that was the original intent of the MTR rule, "player coaches." I would agree. One guy might be able to go down to any div. BUT that would be the only "upper" div guy allowed on the team. (My Indoor League used that one.)

Harlo,

Thanks for the "welcome back." I love seein football players and teams develop, so that's why I think this discussion is important. I would love to see aMB team win TOC, but I certainly don't want lower div teams taken advantage of. Dudes that play for the sake of playing and don't care what the score is, is pretty cool also.

Hey I see Jake Plummer (former Denver Bronco QB)is in town. He's in his early 30's only. Maybe one of the local teams should give him a call. I digress.....

Now that's what I call steppin up. Your suggestion is definitely something that is on the right track. Your rationale for the Multi-team rule is bang on. You addressed the point of retaining the Multi-team rule, but put some restrictions on the players. Certainly, a more limiting policy than we have had the last 5 years. Let's see....

(I'm thinking this is the one baby!! This one might just be the one to get a reconcilliation)Good Job!! :)

Your idea, prevents bringing "ringers" down to a 7th div team. (This was a problem voiced by two teams in the last 5 years in a lower division)

The dropping down one div is similar to one used in Mazur Indoor. Also the "2 upper players" was also a modification for Indoor this year (from the 3 players allowed to previously move down). (So I know they both worked.) It seems like we are on the same page!

The points you made would allow for the exchange of strategy and skill development we both feel are required for a healthy league.(and for anyone who wants to see Touch football grow and people and teams get better has to be addressed.)

In the past a good old fashioned open tournament was held, and teams could get the same experience. Maybe that's a way to go? Tournaments could feature "tournament" teams or the regular normal team. This could allow for better play, for these games, but the regular season you could go back and play with your buddies. (This also is a TFONT concept)

Well boys anything to add? Would these ideas help facilliate the desires of both "camps?"

Not sure if you were told, but the WTFL did propose a modification along these lines to your boys. I don't know why they wouldn't consider it?

Your bringing this up is a significant adjustment to the hardliner philosophy, and certainly raises the possibility of common ground and a new policy.

Nice work. (Sorry I was so late getting back into this chat, but we had the refs draft and with the 20 BJ's and HLs, all certified, we were out pickin games.

Hey out of curiosity, are you going to ref overthere?

Anyway, let's see if anyone else can add some other stuff for discussion. (CC good stuff, keep the ideas comin!:) )

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I say, work on your proposals for a MTR and perfect them. Maybe half way through the season bring it up to the board to see if there is anything else you need to work on to make the solution even better. In the meantime, play the season the way the rule is now and see how it goes. Maybe it works great for all the teams but 1. There is always the AGM to make changes and get one vote from every team in the league. If everyone loves the new rule and it works then the problem is solved.

Harlo, glad you are havin fun. That cup and ball toy is pretty awesome. Look forward to seeing you on the field, hey maybe you will find you don't need Jon to win, maybe you'll be better without him? Who knows, anything can happen.

Andy

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By "coach" do you mean the actual function of a coach or a player on the field? Personally if I were in DIV 7/Rec, I wouldnt enjoy the prospect of playing a team with a DIV 1 or 2 guy on the team. I know we experienced this a few years back when our team first started.

I'm sure there are plenty of teams that got along and developed just fine without having to bring in help from upper divisions.

As stated before I can live with the rule where teams can have one player from a higher up division and a cap for how far down an upper division player can go.

-Jay

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Here's a novel idea. Why don't you have an Elite, div1 and div2 play with multi team players, and a div3, div4 and div5 where there is no player playing for more than one team. That way, if you want to have a team with elite players in them, you have to play in those divisions. And the lower divisions (3,4 and 5) teams are not allowed to have players from upper divisions (Elite, 1 and 2) or from any other teams in lower divisions. From that then you can expand the divisions within those boundaries if needed. Would that be great ? No more ringers in lower divisions and more competitiveness, and just guys that want to play as much football as they want in upper divisions. Sounds like the best of both worlds to me...

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Hey Jyuen,

You kind of refined the point. and that is fine. If a team just wanted a guy with experience (that's what I meant by "Coach") that would be awesome. Ronny Allen of the Ratz did that a few years ago, and it was the best job of coaching I ever saw in Touch Football. He played and called the D, and they played great.

Alouette, I think you just defined the new and improved multi-player/Team policy. Your submission certainly addresses all of the concerns I raised, saw and heard. I think Harlo raised something similar, but you have really refined the point....I might add the ONE "player coach" in lower divs (if desired by a team) to assist newer teams? iF THOSE TEAMS agreed, of course.

GREAT Ideas! Any more! keep 'em flowing!! If both "sides" can agree on a compromise, happiness could return to the "Valley of the Red"

Sorry, maybe it should be the title of my new book "Valley of the Red" A Touch Football History! :)

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Just took a look at the Avengers Schedule. WOW!! What a great schedule!! Sure you think it stinks because you can only play Wed's but correct me if I'm wrong but there are a couple of teams that can't play at all on Wed's so should the league cater to you or to the 2 teams that would lose out? You got every game at 7:45 - I've never seen that happen unless the scheduler was doing that for his own team. Man I think you are alone on this one Harlo, I don't think anyone else in the WTFL has your back. Certainly not the elite teams. That is just my opinion though, but I think its a pretty good guess.

Andy

112 Posts

One can only hope in these sad state of affairs...